The Vulture Report

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:03:18 GMT

Roller007 wrote:

Also, because of a pre war screw-up the crankshaft for the Merlin could only be made at the drop hammer facility owned by Vickers ( produced 84 per shift ) until 1941 when the first of the new machine tools arrived. This in itself also limited merlin production.

You call it a pre-war screw up, when was this realised and did anyone suggest earlier using new tooling?

What...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Roller007) — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:53:13 GMT

Rolls Royce through 1939 to early 1942 treated each Merlin as a one of a kind. In trying to meet the demand, this required many machinists/craftsmen and produced many engines with flaws, metal shavings, cracks, etc. Packards introduction of different coating techniques, different bearings and standardization all were quickly picked up by RR and allowed them to expand there capacity, decreased there defect percentages and produced an engine with a longer running time.
Also, because of a...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:23:16 GMT

That friction looks OK, Russ. What will be needed is a paper laying it all out as Shane and I did with the Briish Aviation side of it. Obviously, these start small and grow by accretion, but they are a seriously useful tool in 'mapping' issues of this complexity and making them explicable.

On the Merlin issue, I do not understand your comments about Merlin being poor quality. Ford UK had some productionisation issues at their Trafford Park plant "caused by a perceived...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Roller007) — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:11:37 GMT

Doh!@ Yuku ate my post....sigh!

Shane

First off we have Vulture which had issues before POD and had no even gotten to the Production stage at RR before POD. Meanwhile we have Sabre with no problems in the prototype stage before POD and was just starting Production at POD. The problems for Napier started at Production. The sleeve valves, the machining all for Napier were a mess as they just could not scale up from a one of a kind shop to mass production. There reaction to...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 02:22:24 GMT

In terms of global drivers, yes the factors that allow Vulture to be saved are favorable for sorting Sabre out too, but the details look to be set against it.

This is the killer issue here, for UK practice was not US practice and vice-versa. The devil really is in the details as Shane has described, and this bodes poorly for Napier and Sabre.

...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (The Argus) — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:51:13 GMT

I just don't see it being that easy Russ.

In terms of global drivers, yes the factors that allow Vulture to be saved are favorable for sorting Sabre out too, but the details look to be set against it.

OK we have both Tornado and Typhoon kicking off at the same time, Type N and Type R as they were for a period, and Typhoon (Type N) is the preferred option due to its higher potential power. But that view was essentially pre-war and before practical concerns came to the...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Roller007) — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:27:36 GMT

Shane,

For Sabre I can't see where you're comming form here Russ. Vulture actively harms Sabre, just as Vulture's death in OTL boosted it, and in any case the key point is not English Electric improving quality control, its the engine getting into serious production in the first place. OK admittedly this is all on the political/procurement level not the technical side, but having Vulture/Tornado sets back any call for OTL Sabre/Typhoon (FFO Tornado...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (The Argus) — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:37:30 GMT

Cheers Russ

First off I see 'Eagle' as the Griffin based X-24 rather than the OTL sleeve valve H-24. If RR have what amounts to two generation of experience with an X layout (Vulture and Vulture II/Bustard), I really can't see them going for an H if/when they look to another 24 cylinder engine unless they hit some unforeseen (by us) snag with that layout in larger sizes.

I have no proof but, I dare say one of the factors that sent RR down the H road for OtL...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Roller007) — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 04:43:06 GMT

A few things,

Shane, I love the flow of how your thoughts on the engines go, I'm still worried that a Merlin based x-24 engine might go the way of the Exe if a Griffon based one and the Eagle are available.

Mark, things that help the Vulture, will also help the Sabre. If that's the case and English Electric can get the production quality up after the introduction of new machine tools, it will take a monumental change in thought to prevent the Sabre from being on...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:18:20 GMT

That chain of logic is very compelling, Shane. I cannot see any holes in the research or reasoning on first and second read-throughs.

There may be a quiet point of worry in the Air Min about all of this, they will not really want a monopoly supplier, even RR. This is a powerful driver to make very sure that Bristol stays in the game, and in turn this folds in neatly to the deamnd for a 'tropical colonial first rate fighter' with Centaurus as the engine.

They will...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (The Argus) — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:16:49 GMT

Agreed Nick, but this is not the OTL Eagle, but an X-24 on Griffin sized cylinders. Its going to be far larger in capacity (73.4 liters!!!) but far less refined than OTL Eagle, brute force, ignorance and swept volume over sleeve valves and high rpm.

And you can throw as many thoughts into this discussion as you care to

shane

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Nick Sumner) — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:07:52 GMT

If I might just throw one thought into this discussion; I don't believe RR saw Eagle 22 as a 4000hp engine, I think they saw it as a 6-7000 hp engine. I've a feeling the high weight of the Eagle 22 was because it was built with an eye to increasing power by driving boost and piston speed up to very high levels - same as Napier did with the Sabre.

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (The Argus) — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:50:08 GMT

Russ I think 4 things save Centaurus

1/ it IS an air cooled radial, and this engine type is preferable for 'commercial' type roles, in bombers and transports, plus is gaining status in fighters too.

2/ It is also a 'safe' 2,500 hp engine on the shelf. No matter how confident people may be that Vulture II will reach/exceed this figure, it has a dubious past that will not lightly be forgiven while Centaurus will be exceeding 2,000 hp (actually 2,200 IIRC)...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Roller007) — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:55:55 GMT

Here's some ideas:

1) I think the Vulture will be fixed late 41, early 42. BTW this will have a huge impact on several aircraft programs. It will also regulate Centarus to secondary engine status as her 18 cylinders just wont have the power potential of the 24 cylinder Vulture. BTW based on work done by Rolls Royce, the potential of the Vulture was in the 3800 hp range.

2/3) I think RR will have started in 1941 a Merlin project and the Griffon based on the vulture...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:25:19 GMT

Shane and I had a talk about this last night. We also discussed your ideas involving Griffon-sized cylinder 'Vulture'

Looking at the drivers in 1941, we are kicking around the ideas below:

1. FFO 'fixed Vulture or 'Vulture II'' is equivalent of OTL Vulture V. So it is the end of the line for the 5x5.5 cylinder bore, and is a touch under 3000hp. Say 2750hp. This is 'today's engine today, but it has some obvious flaws which are managed by...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (Roller007) — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:00:17 GMT

Now Look at the spec's and discription of the Gryphon and the increase in technology used in its design over the Kestrel and merlin based engines. Now think of a similar tech used in a Vulture II. Less stress in the aircraft system in Britain, program lasts long enough to see what the US does to the Rolls Royce Merlin at Packard and machine tools sooner means that the Vulture that we know might get fixed in Late 1941, early 1942. Rolls Royce see's that the potential is there for much...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:59:38 GMT

Fair enough as a description, I think. It WAS decided to use twice the 900hp Kestrel volume in the same generic pattern of two pairs of 6 cyl banks of Kestrel bore and stroke to meet a demand for an engine of 1800hp. SO as a way to describe Vulture, this seems OK.

You have to research the actual shape and construction of the engine in detail to get past this description. Once you do, you find that the cylinders had a different spacing to kestrel, and that the engine bore no...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (PMN1) — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:50:58 GMT

In his book World Encyclopeia of Aero Engines, Bill Gunston says 'More sustained effort was applied to the Vulture. This was the direct route to higher power, in having four Peregrine blocks (2,592 cu in) arranged in the same X-24 form with 60/120 degree spacing and one crankshaft.

In his book 'The Right of the Line', John Terraine describes the Vulture as two Kestrels.

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:32:55 GMT

OK, Russ, I think we may have tracked one part for the currency of this myth!

OK, Lumsden: "… two Kestrel-sized V-12 units with a common crankshaft mounted on a common crankcase…. Virtually twp Peregrines, one above the other…"

Now, careful examination of the wording shows that he being descriptive, not proscriptive or...

Re: The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:55:45 GMT

Thanks Russ. I have borrowed Lumsden and also the Manchester book, which covers Vulture very well. I'm puzzled at the RR Trust not recommending Rubbra, as they published his book. Might be dependent ont eh question asked - obviously, his focus is on merlin, as he was involved mostly int hat project.

Post more tonight when I've had a chance to read in a bit.

Cheers: Mark

The Vulture Report

feeds@yuku.com (MarkLBailey) — Sat, 24 May 2008 23:52:37 GMT

Shane, especially for you to have a look at. Source is a magnificent book on the Avro Manchester, which explodes a few myths about the type. For example, the major problem with Manchester was not that the Vulture lost he big end bearing and caught fire, but that the acft had great problems maintaining altitiue on one engine. Yet, about one in four could, and did, and returned form an engine loss over Germany on one engine! One even was able to gain altitude with a full and unjettisonable...